The historical Jesus didn't create a new religion!

[andersbranderud]

This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) – the Instructions of the Creator – with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”

Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseif and his mothers name was Miriam. His parents were practising Jews.

According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.

He took care of sick and made it popular to pray in what corresponds to today’s Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim. This Christian bishop didn’t have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they distorted the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced – Hellenism – the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

Following the teachings of the Judaic Mâshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua – that is doing one’s utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyâhu's (Jeremiah’s) New Covenant.

If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. www.schuellerhouse.com) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il) whom is followers of Ribi Yehoshua – the Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism

[ApologiaPhoenix]

You: This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?
According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

Me: Well we have here a lot of assertions. Unfortunately, the "historical scholarship" I see at the bottom of the page is lacking. I see just a website. Who are these people? Why should I believe them? If Jesus practiced orthodox Judaism all his life, then why was he crucified? Did people who were normally good orthodox Jews in Israel get crucified?

You: During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) – the Instructions of the Creator – with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Me: Supposing he did demonstrate that. This has what to do with the price of tea in China? It says nothing about what Israel did beforehand and considering they got sent into captivity and had the temple destroyed, it's likely they were always following Torah with joy.

You: Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”

Me: Again, the relevance of this is what?

You: Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseif and his mothers name was Miriam. His parents were practising Jews.

Me: 7 B.C.? Come on! Where is the source for this? (Also, he "was" born. Persons are not "were born.")

You: According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.

Me: What world-recognized authorities? I want names of books and authors of peer-reviewed pieces I can track down. What do you have? You also make claims about who accepted teachings of Christ. Unfortunately, that's all they are. Claims. Do you have anything to back them up?

You: He took care of sick and made it popular to pray in what corresponds to today’s Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

Me: And the Pharisees? They were in on this also. Also, he made it popular to pray? Wow. I would think that if Israel was following the Torah with joy, prayer would always be pretty popular.

You: Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim. This Christian bishop didn’t have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they distorted the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced – Hellenism – the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )

Me: Wow. A simple google search of "Christian Bishop Markos" simply reveals that same sentence over and over that's in this line. Hmmmm. Just a guess, but that tells me I'm hearing nonsense. Also, note that Jerusalem had already fallen in 70 A.D. Yes. It was attacked again but that was nothing compared to 135 A.D. and at that time, they had someone else they were trying to identify as the Messiah.

Also, this bishop didn't have permission? From whom? Makes it sound like there was a hierarchy of a movement already in place.

You also say "What Paul the apostate and later founder of Christianity...." Later?! Paul is much earlier than 135 A.D. Either your sources are off or you're not communicating well.

You: Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

Me: Well if there was only one sect in Judaism that had rabbis and Jesus belonged to it, he would be of that sect. However, you've simply given assertions. There is nothing here that I can look up and frankly, my time is better spent in ways other than dealing with non-assertions.

You: Following the teachings of the Judaic Mâshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua – that is doing one’s utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyâhu's (Jeremiah’s) New Covenant.

Me: And if you follow the teachings of the Book of Mormon, you will have so much joy on Earth! If you become a good Hindu, you will realize oneness with Brahman! If you read the Qu'ran, you will find the beauty therein. Claims like this don't faze me. However, you are wrong on the count of the laws. There were only 611 said until Moses Maimonides. He added two to get the total of days of the year (365) with bones of the body. (248) (Little note: When you add those together, you get 613. Cool, huh?)

If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. www.schuellerhouse.com) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.

And for a response to Wilson, you can go here: http://www.tektonics.org/books/whenjesusrvw.html

For the other, I have no response but if it's as astounding as what I've seen here, there are again better uses of my time. Maybe I can play on the Wii or something.

[Apologia Xristou]

Greetings, andersbranderud,

Welcome to Truth Chat.

This post we about the historical Jesus. Who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion?

I noticed that you have placed this same post on your blog and multiple discussion boards. Ergo, I suspect that you consider this information to be very accurate and important. I hope can provide some useful comments and thought provoking questions that will supplement Apologia Phoenix’s points.

According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim – that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

That is a fascinating claim. Which ancient sources refer to the Netzarim?

The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Not really. The Sadducees did not follow the oral Torah. Dr. Bart Ehrman writes, “Indeed, it appears that the Torah itself, that is, the five books of Moses, was the only authoritative text that the Sadducees accepted. In any event, we know that they did not accept the oral traditions formulated by the Pharisees” (Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 48.).

Concordantly, E. P. Sanders writes, “We know little about them, except that most Sadducees were aristocratic, did not believe in any form of life after death, and did not accept the Pharisees’ special traditions” (E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus [Penguin Books, 1993], 47.).

Additionally, Emanuelle Main writes: “Another subject of contention between the Sadducees and the Pharisees concerns the ‘traditions of the Fathers,’ which the Pharisees considered as having authority almost on par with that of the written Torah, but which the Sadducees rejected (Jewish Antiquities 13.297)” (Emanuelle Main, “Sadducees,” in Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Volume 2, ed. Lawrence H. Schiffman & James C. VanderKam, (Oxford University Press, 2000), 815.).

According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (http://www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.

Which ancient sources preserves this information?

The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

The Pharisees planned to destroy Jesus, too.

Matthew 12:14 says, “14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.”

Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim.

Which ancient source provides this data?

What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they distorted the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced – Hellenism – the religion of the Greeks.

Which ancient primary source states Paul was an apostate? A very early source, Galatians, indicates that Paul taught the same message that Jesus’s apostles espoused. Galatians 2:6-9 states:

“6And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me. 7On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised 8(for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles), 9and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”

(Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )

I am confused by your reference to Eusebius’s Ecclesiastical History. Unfortunately, neither section you listed mentions Paul distorting anything. Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, Chapter 5, 1-4 states:

1. The chronology of the bishops of Jerusalem I have nowhere found preserved in writing; for tradition says that they were all short lived.
2. But I have learned this much from writings, that until the siege of the Jews, which took place under Adrian, there were fifteen bishops in succession there, all of whom are said to have been of Hebrew descent, and to have received the knowledge of Christ in purity, so that they were approved by those who were able to judge of such matters, and were deemed worthy of the episcopate. For their whole church consisted then of believing Hebrews who continued from the days of the apostles until the siege which took place at this time; in which siege the Jews, having again rebelled against the Romans, were conquered after severe battles.
3. But since the bishops of the circumcision ceased at this time, it is proper to give here a list of their names from the beginning. The first, then, was James, the so-called brother of the Lord; the second, Symeon; the third, Justus; the fourth, Zacchæus; the fifth, Tobias; the sixth, Benjamin; the seventh, John; the eighth, Matthias; the ninth, Philip; the tenth, Seneca; the eleventh, Justus; the twelfth, Levi; the thirteenth, Ephres; the fourteenth, Joseph; and finally, the fifteenth, Judas.
4. These are the bishops of Jerusalem that lived between the age of the apostles and the time referred to, all of them belonging to the circumcision.
5. In the twelfth year of the reign of Adrian, Xystus, having completed the tenth year of his episcopate, was succeeded by Telesphorus, the seventh in succession from the apostles. In the meantime, after the lapse of a year and some months, Eumenes, the sixth in order, succeeded to the leadership of the Alexandrian church, his predecessor having held office eleven years.

Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 12, 1 states:

1. At this time Narcissus was the bishop of the church at Jerusalem, and he is celebrated by many to this day. He was the fifteenth in succession from the siege of the Jews under Adrian. We have shown that from that time first the church in Jerusalem was composed of Gentiles, after those of the circumcision, and that Marcus was the first Gentile bishop that presided over them.

Emperor Adrian, or Hadrian, ruled from 117-138 C.E. Paul was already dead by this time because Paul was probably killed during Nero’s reign around 64 C.E. Therefore, this passage from Eusebius’s Ecclesiastical History clearly is not referring to the time of Paul or his contemporaries.

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

The Greek word used for “rabbi” possessed a number of meanings. It could be translated as: Rabbi, my master, teacher, or doctor (George V. Wigram, The Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (Hendrickson Publishers, 1983), 358). Ergo, this term was not limited to Pharisees. However, I would be interested in reading what Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, and Charlesworth wrote concerning the “rabbi” word and Jesus being a Pharisee.

Synagogues were not strictly Pharisee institutions. For the sake of space, I will limit my discussion to two examples. First, the Essenes met in synagogues. Lee I. Levine explains:

“Philo describes Essene worship as he does Jewish worship, generally consisting of the reading and elucidation of scriptures in synagogues. Regarding Essene Sabbath worship, he notes: For that day has been set apart to be kept holy and on it they abstain from all other work and proceed to sacred spots which they call synagogues (syagogai). There, arranged in rows according to their ages, the younger below the elder, they sit decorously as befits the occasion with attentive ears. Then one takes the books and reads aloud and another of especial proficiency comes forward and expounds what is not understood (Philo, Quod omnis probus liber sit, 81-82; translation, F. H. Colson, Loeb Classical Library). Whether this description is reflective of Essene settings everywhere, only in Qumran, or, alternatively, everywhere except Qumran, is difficult to determine” (Lee I. Levine, “Synagogues,” in Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Volume 2, ed. Lawrence H. Schiffman & James C. VanderKam, (Oxford University Press, 2000), 905.).


Second, a revolutionary Jewish group known as the Sicarii also met in a synagogue at Masada. Lee I. Levine also writes:

“Undoubtedly, the most famous synagogue building remains from the Second Temple period are those of Masada, excavated between 1963 and 1965. Originally a Herodian reception hall, this room was transformed into a synagogue during the occupation of the fortress by the Sicarii (one of the more extreme revolutionary groups) between 66 and 74 CE” (Lee I. Levine, “Synagogues,” in Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Volume 2, 905.).


Therefore, the mere fact that Jesus spoke in synagogues does not demonstrate that Jesus was a Pharisee.

Which primary sources state that Jesus was a Pharisee? Early primary source material challenges the idea that Jesus was a Pharisee. Specifically:

Matthew 16:6-12 states: “6Jesus said to them, ‘Watch out, and beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.’ 7They said to one another, ‘It is because we have brought no bread.’ 8And becoming aware of it, Jesus said, ‘You of little faith, why are you talking about having no bread? 9Do you still not perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 11How could you fail to perceive that I was not speaking about bread? Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!’ 12Then they understood that he had not told them to beware of the yeast of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

In other words, Jesus instructed his followers to beware of the Pharisees’ teachings along with the Sadducees’ teachings.

Plus, multiple other passages depict Jesus opposing the Pharisees. Luke 11:42 says, “‘But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God; it is these you ought to have practiced, without neglecting the others.”

I hope this information provides some food for thought.

[Gossioii9]

This is great! Now I want to see your ways for us readers to become more involved! Expect an email later today.